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Teaching Kids About Money Through Real Experiences


Gayle Reaume founded Moolah U after noticing that children are often not equipped to manage their money. In reaction to COVID-19 she launched their first online kid business camp last week with kids from all over the country.  They’re delivering two programs this week in multiple time zones and are working with leaders in Singapore and Australia to expand the program. Gayle was also the 2019 Mentor of the Year by Austin under 40. This episode is a must for parents who want to confidently offer their kids financial autonomy.

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Welcome to the Establishing Your Empire show. A podcast that inspires entrepreneurs, creatives and future business owners to pursue their passions, grow their organizations and build their empire. My name is Daran Herrman and creatively I’m best known for my photography. But business wise my claim to fame is growing a company from $15K per month in online sales to breaking the one million dollar a month barrier. And I’m sitting down with interesting people to talk about their process, the lessons they learned and how they have Established their Empire’s.


All right. Gale, thank you so much for being on the podcast. Really, really appreciate you coming. So why don’t you start off and just give us a background of what you do and kind of maybe of where you got started and, and all that.

Yeah, well it’s been many, many years, so it’s a long story. So I’m trying to keep it short, but I am, you know, I grew up in the Midwest from, with parents that were from the depression. Oh wow. And yeah, my dad was born in 1930 and they were, you know, the stories are pretty scary about how they had to live in those times and they became very frugal. My parents were both really frugal, smart, efficient people. Well, college educated went off and got great degrees and, and good jobs and they started to really understand like how they were going to manage the funding of having five kids.

And they just put a lot of intention and thought into it and they talked about it a lot and we could see that they were making really specific conscious choices about money. We always thought we were really poor because they were very, very frugal. And then my dad retired when he was 52. Oh wow. So, you know, we learned a lot about how to make our dollars stretch and they also gave us all these opportunities to make our own money. You know, I remember my sister and I running an art camp for the kids in the neighborhood when we were kids when we were kids. And you know, just my parents encouraged that sort of entrepreneurial spirit that, you know, go out and get a babysitting job or do something where you can exchange your time for money and you can understand the truth about the value of money.

And what part of the Midwest did you grow up in Milwaukee? I’m from Kansas, so we’re both Midwesterners here. I think we always stick together. I always find people that are like my wife if from Missouri. So some way we always kind of connect. But so you grew up in the Midwest and you had some fantastic parents it sounds like. And so like what was kind of your first job or entrepreneurial thing or what happened? Like walk me down that path. Just the beginnings.

Yeah, I mean, after college I, I came to Texas and was just looking for what I would do. I love marketing, I love making a difference and all of the messaging. And so I’ve, I did work with nonprofits. I also have a real passion for making a difference. And I’ve learned a lot about how to influence audiences and people to participate in movements really. And I saw the power of community and I really enjoyed that. And I, I’ve had, after that I had some of my own small lifestyle businesses and I’ve just done a bunch of different things. I launched a parenting magazine here in Austin when my daughter was young, you know, just sort of go with wherever the need is and what’s, what seems to be a pole and where I can make a difference. So besides what you’re doing now, which we’ll get into a little bit, what was your favorite job or volunteer experience?

I’ve always really liked working with groups of people on projects and so bringing something to life. So I did a lot of work with events and starting with yours, do you remember way back? Years was quite a bit different, but was with the YMCAs of a UTI and, yeah. You know, just organizing that. I’ve been on the board at the Austin museum of art. I’ve worked on boards as a volunteer board member with the Amigos, which is a program my daughter did. She went to the American Republic for a summer between junior and senior year of high school for eight weeks. Oh wow. They do projects down there. Their, their role while they’re down there is to live in these small villages and actually create projects that the community that they engage the community in creating with for themselves that will continue after they’re gone. So I’d really enjoy those types

Of projects. And for somebody who wants to get more involved, like how, how does that happen? Right. So I think a lot of people get lost and trying to get involved in volunteer experiences or, you know, like how would you suggest somebody just to, even if they just, they don’t do anything now, but they would like to do something. What would be a recommendation for them?

Well, everything I’ve ever been involved in is stuff that I was already doing. I was going to, he orders and I went, Oh, I can help organize that. Or I was an artist, I made jewelry and I was exhibiting at the ASA museum of art show, which used to be a Laguna Gloria. And for years I did that and I went, who runs this? This is cool. I want to get involved in that. Amigos was because my daughter did Amigos and I was also on the board at young life cause she was involved in that during high school. And I just sort of go where the need is. And that’s very entrepreneurial.

I think so too. And I think just being around a lot of times because everybody needs help, but you know, even if you’re just kinda there, they’re like, you know, you’re able to raise your hand and say, okay, well maybe I could pick that up. Right,

Right. If you’re already on the court, then it’s easy to pick up the ball. But you do have to have that entrepreneurial mindset and it is a really important aspect to human development. It’s getting a little bit squished. You know, the, the idea is go to college, get a job and we’ve forgotten that we can invent anything.

Yeah. And it’s interesting cause the, especially when I went to school, like that’s everybody went to college, right? That was what everybody did. Luckily it wasn’t near as expensive as is today, but I never, I was, I was definitely not the norm where I didn’t really think I should have gone to college. I mean I went and luckily it wasn’t that expensive and I paid my own way through college, but my first company at 20 and my second on 21. So to me that the piece of paper is all I thought about. And I was looked at weird by that, but luckily I still got a degree so I haven’t, but which is nice. But I do think it’s interesting that that like not everybody should go to college unless you have a specific, it’s going to be a doctor, you’re going to be in medical, you’re going to be a lawyer. I think there’s a engineer. I think there’s a lot of areas where you have to have a decree, right? I think if you’re really good at working with your hands, maybe you should go to a technical school or maybe just start getting a job and figuring out where your path leads.

And sometimes it’s just pursuing something you’re interested in. So trade school versus college versus an internship or starting your own company. It doesn’t matter how you learn it, it’s more important that you’re interested. I really do believe that not college isn’t for everybody, especially at the exorbitant costs it is now. But there is a period of time in our youth when we’re shifting from being in high school into adulthood that it’s helpful to have that transition of some sort. So whether it’s internships or you know, getting out and doing something really intense so that you can learn, it’s actually better than college because you, you’re not just taking information in, you’re actually on the court doing the, whatever you’re doing for those years. You have to just jump in, make a lot of mistakes, you know, you fail in college, whatever. I had a point for my first semester, we can edit that out.

I don’t think mine was very much higher than that. Well, and I also think that, let’s look at it. I’ve hired a lot of people over the years, hundreds of people, and if somebody comes to me and they have experience in doing things versus somebody who’s just straight out of college with a communications degree. Yeah. Like that personal experience. As long as they interviewed the same, right. They went every time. Yeah. At the levels that I’ve hired at. Right. So anyway, so let’s talk about what you’re doing now. Maybe tell everybody everybody what, what your, what your company is and what you guys do. Yeah. Well, I, I had a child and I started wondering like how she was gonna learn about money. And I could see like, like I said, the difference between how I grew up, which was everything, had you understood value things.

We weren’t living in such a world of consumption. You know, we all pestered our parents to buy us stuff, but it was like, well, you know, how are you going to make the money to get back? You know, we never were just handed, there wasn’t the entitlement. We were on the edge of that. That’s where we’re moving into. I could see that that was going to happen with my daughter, that it was going to be tough for her too. I understand the value of money because everything was just given. Everything was there and you, you had the ability to give it to her probably too. And that’s a tough deal to where there’s not just a simple exclusive, I don’t have the money to give that to you because rarely is that the case. Right. And so that becomes difficult. So how so, so actually before I go into that, give us, give us a update of like what your, what your company does a little bit more.

I know you were talking about that obviously that it deals with money, but like with kids, but actually how does that happen? Right. I mean it started because she was asking me for more money for an L for her allowance. And I realized that if, if I was just handing her more money it, she was just going to spend it because what is the only Lang word we have in the English language for money? Really? no, probably or more bend spend. Yeah. I mean, when we talk about what we’re going to do with our money and when we talk about save, it means we got something at a discount. It doesn’t really mean save and nowhere is the conversation around investing, right? Unless you’ve got wealth in your, an adult. But where would you know to do that if you didn’t understand it from a young age?

So, you know, we’re really looking at shifting that language. And what I noticed with my daughter was that if I, if she had some experiences with money, she would start to understand it better in that raised she wanted in her allowance, it would have a certain meaning. And so I started attaching some responsibilities and just agreements around it. And one of the things is that from the day she got that raise, we had the agreement that she would save 10% of all of her money. And I think she was six. That’s, that’s fantastic. Yeah. And she’s done it like it’s the water she swims in


. An example is when she was a, I think 11 on her birthday, someone gave her a gift card for $20 and she’d gone into her savings account and moved $2 to her investment account. And I noticed that and I asked her and she said, well, I couldn’t take it out of the card. Oh, that’s fantastic. So that was just five years of doing that and it became automatic and I didn’t have to run that conversation anymore. And she got excited about that money. She got excited to use that money to make more money and she saved more and more of the money that she got.

Yeah. And I also think that when you’re, you’re giving your kids some money to play with or to use, they also can fail small. Right. A lot of people don’t, and this is myself included, I didn’t really have what I do. I did grow up pretty poor, so I didn’t really have much money. But as soon as I started making money, then you make mistakes. And luckily that’s still small to you know, adult adult standards. But I would have loved to have made mistakes that at the $50 level, at a $10 level, not the $2,000 level. Right?


So, all right. So she’s six

With that. And I was in an investment club with some girlfriends of mine and we were just wanting to get better about our own investing and understanding our own money situations. And so she was around that all the time and she wanted an investment club at her school. I think she was in second or third grade. And so I went looking for a curriculum or something I could do with kids to have them. I understand that. And I realized that they didn’t, couldn’t understand investing as it’s as a solo topic. They had to sort of understand all of how money works. So I had to invent that cause it didn’t exist. So fortunately she was at a Montessori school and there were teachers and my mother and my family said, a lot of my family members are teachers. And I just pulled everybody together because I love doing that.

I love building tribes to make things happen. And we wrote this curriculum and we started delivering these afterschool clubs. And inside of there, the kids were doing business projects. It was part of the way we learned about money because why do we have money? It’s so we can trade it and do business. And so we had them do a little business projects and it was phenomenal. They got so much out of that that they wanted to have a whole week of camp. So I went, okay, I’ll invent that. And again, I pulled a whole tribe of people together and, and we basically started on a Monday and look, every afternoon at the end of the day we’d go, okay, what are we doing tomorrow? And we invented a camp and it was so popular. It was so much fun. The kids loved it. And they wanted to do another session. So that was 2005 and we did two different weeks of camp that summer and it was such a hit and we started doing a more, so I think we did six the following summer and then in 2008, we were up to about 12 or 15 camps and that’s when the crash happened. Oh yeah, sure. And my business tripled

Because everybody will

Want to know what they should have done or what they, what they can do with their smaller amounts. Well, they were really concerned about the, the future that their kids were inheriting. They could see that they weren’t in shape to endure an economic setback like we’re in right now. And so we’re seeing a similar thing where parents are starting to get really concerned for their kids. And so they knew that they weren’t equipped to teach our kids how to do it. And so yeah. And then we were featured in the wall street journal that year. So then it was just a demand for it worldwide. Yeah. I mean our organic growth there is really the almost the best way for something to happen because it’s almost like people are asking you to do more. Yeah. So what was kind of the format of some of these camps?

Cause the camp is kind of fun because it doesn’t have to be like sit in a chair and preach to you, right? It could be a little bit more interactive. Well we know that that doesn’t work anyway, right? Kids really aren’t learning anything that because they’re not applying it. And especially with something that’s a life skill. You know, you can watch videos all day about how to ride a bike, but you’re going to go out on that bike and fall. That’s how you’re going to learn what balance is because you’re going to find out what it’s not. And so we, we do in the camp is actually have the kids, we give them a bit of basics about sort of a structure of a business. What are the kind of mean things that you have to pay to pension too and how do those knit together to create a successful project.

And then we give them a bucket full of craft materials, a lot of which are recycled samples of a bunch of product materials and they actually make a product. And this is Monday, like right out, right out of the Gates. And so they break into teams. Some of the people are outside interviewing the customers. Like would you buy a duct tape wallet? What color do you want it? They’re learning to do market research. And then they come inside and they tell the production people, Oh, they know they want this instead. It’s amazing. And we do very little directing of that. We give them some concepts and then, you know, sort of what do they need to know right now? Did we talk about market research? We talk about product. I mean they have to do product cost analysis. How much tape did I use and how much does it cost to make one of these items? [inaudible]

It’s pretty amazing. And what age ranges are, are they having an app? Oh wow. It’s darling. It’s very darling. And we have mentors. So we, you know, we have tons of interest from the entrepreneurial and business world for people that want to make a difference in this capacity. So we have a very structured mentoring program where people come in at different times during the process and they have, and you know, a bit of coaching for the adults on how to work with the kids without telling them what to do. And it’s beautiful because they learn so much. Everybody who’s ever been in mentoring camp, that it was one of their most enlivening experiences. Like they actually are treating their kids differently and they’re [inaudible] going back to work and T, you know, operating differently at work because they’ve learned how to be a mentor and not a manager.

So it’s got so many levels of wonderfulness. Yeah. Not to get too off track, but it’s crazy that we’d never, there’s no class. You don’t learn money in school, you don’t learn money in college. Hardly you know, maybe some spreadsheet work, but not really investment money. And, or even just how you were saying like to me it’s so much more fun to, you might preach to somebody what March market research is and the theory behind it and what’s worked and some case studies. But you know, going out there and talking to people, that is like a, one of the first things I tell people when they have an idea. Sure. Go talk to a hundred people. See what they say. Yeah. And people don’t want it. They kind of close up and they don’t want to do that a lot of times. But I’m like, that’s your first step out of the gate.

Yeah. Cause you don’t want to be three years in and then realize that nobody wants it. No. Well, and the other thing is the, no matter how much you learn about something, knowledge is not it doesn’t apply. It’s just a stored up there. And we’re actually on overload with knowledge and information right now is the, you know, technology’s advanced and [inaudible]. It’s stressing people out. It’s too much information without any real practice. And you also mentioned that you know, you don’t worry about it in school, in college or high school. And the truth is it’s not where it’s learned. It really has to be learned at home. It has to be learned out in the real world. And all of the studies show that 99% of what kids learn about money is learned at home. And that’s across the board for people that have wealth or not.

We’re also seeing studies now because financial literacy has been put into school, you know, parents don’t know how to do it. So they really push for it to happen in school 15 years later. Longitudinal study notes, significant difference between the kids that got it. And that didn’t get the financial education, no difference in their behavior. So if you’ve gotten all that education, you might be able to pass the test, or you may know more about what it is to balance a checkbook, but you’re not doing it well. Yeah. And you know, if you’ve learned it seven years before you actually put it into practice, or even seven months before we put it in the practice, you’re gonna forget. You just pass the test. You remembered the right answers that you were supposed to remember, but you didn’t actually monies every single day. Every second. Yeah.

So I mean, yeah, put it into practice. Makes complete sense. Yeah. And that requires parents because school is not going to give you an allowance or you know, you’re not going to have a real experience there. So there’s a big push right now to bring entrepreneurial education into the schools, which again, it’s, you know, coupled with this level of this label called education. Like we’re going to teach people how to be entrepreneurs. And the reality is the only way you can understand money or understand any of this is to actually do it. So a part of the, one of the features on our new app that we’re building is an actual entrepreneur project, which is our kid proven program from camp. And we’ve just digitize that. So that’ll be able to be used in the schools. So teachers don’t have to try to teach entrepreneurship because that would be like giving me a physics manual and trying to send me into a physics class.

I mean, most teachers really don’t know how to th they’re not, they haven’t been entrepreneurial. I would say there’s some, but you know, it’s not a thing you can learn in and learn how to teach it. Yeah. I mean it’s kind of, it’s a different path. Like somebody who’s going to be a teacher typically has it done the entrepreneurial path. I mean, it’s, it’s a different deal. So how many years ago did you guys start this, these camps? 15 years ago. 2000. Well, actually in 2004, we had our first club, our first afterschool club. And what’d you call it? It was the money club. The money club. Perfect. And we were the money Academy because it was the only word I could get that I could get the nowhere else. All right. Yeah. And perfect names that actually, but, but they’re not a trademarkable. Right.

And so when we franchise, so several years after we started the, the commotion got started internationally and we needed to figure out how to scale this cause we could see like it was the coolest thing and everybody wanted it. So how do you scale that, you know, and I did an accelerator back then and called activate for women entrepreneurs and we came up with the idea, the franchise, which you know, is a brilliant model for certain types of businesses, but it’s a little tough for the high human touch businesses. It’s better for re things that are repetitive actions that don’t require a lot of personal training and you know, development of the people that are delivering it. And so that didn’t fully work. And so when we took a pivot on that, we realized ultimately that we’re learning happens about money is on the court and it has to happen with your parents.

It has to happen with real money and that has to happen at home. So we had been on goingly doing these parent courses. We came up with a three hour course for parents to understand how to do this stuff at home. It involved a lot of examining what you are already doing, how much money are you already spending on your kids? How are you going to then transfer that to them? I’d say probably the first hour was just kind of having people get over their shame that they don’t know more. You know, there’s an awful lot of concern of, you know, how we’re doing and, and we should be doing better for our kids, for ourselves. And there’s a lot of energy around that between couples when they’re in the course together. And so we spend a lot of time sort of putting that aside.

Now let’s look at what, so it’s just like the baseline. What’s the reality? Like gravity, when you drop something, it falls. When you spend money, it’s gone. And so once we, once we’re there and we can start to look at these patterns that they’re doing, the conversations they’re having and whatnot. So it was such an effective program. People were just texting us and writing to us after that thing. Look what we’re doing. And my kids are doing great with this and my husband and I are doing better at this. So we took all that in, digitize it into some online PR courses. Yeah. Very cool. And is that because you wanted to reach a broader audience or make it simpler for you guys to make it the next course? Like what made you think that? Let, let, let’s


make this a little bit more, I don’t know, like a real business I guess as opposed to just not, not that it’s not a real business when you’re doing all these workshops, but, well, I guess one of the gaps that I want to want to know about is, you know, you’re, you’re doing these great things.

You have these workshops, you’re in person, which is a lot of fun, not a lot of work. Right. And then how did you go from there to a little bit more of a scalable company I guess? Well, when we tried scaling through franchising, yeah, it was a lot of work. A lot of money, lot of time, a lot of heartbreak when it didn’t work. But the courses were, we’re a much more natural progression for us. And the people that had been involved in helping me design those and whatnot were really instrumental in both funding it and keeping it going. Mmm. So they actually would kick, came in and tape the courses and then we wrote them all out and, and then we got, you know, green screened it and put it all together. And so just again, it’s when it’s, when it’s needed, it’s, it gets created.

And it was both from the purpose of, you know, taking me out of the equation. Hyman work-wise, we’re multiplying my presence, but you know, I’m really here to serve, you know, I’m here to set people free. And if I wasn’t fulfilling on that through franchising, I was going to find another way. You know, cause that’s just what I’m here for. You know, you sort of get to that point in life where you’re like, okay, yeah, that’s why I’m here. Right. And, and how, how can you reach more people? Right. And that’s internet or phones or apps or whatever as opposed to, yeah, cause you can only get, you could only be in so many places at once. Right. Well, and just to be able to, when I see the freedom that this work provides people, it’s just, it’s unconscionable that I wouldn’t share it with more people.

So is most, is your ID like your target market, I guess we could call it, is that the parents or is it the kids? Like who do you usually pitch to when you’re like doing your marketing? What a good question because this has been the constant dilemma. We, our programs have served kids, kids go through the programs. When we’re, when we, especially when we shifted into these parent courses, we saw that [inaudible] [inaudible] parents think or they are good taking the course so they can know how to teach your kids about money. But what they’re really doing is learning it for themselves the first time. So your answer, the answer is both. And and so w after the next phase, what we did is we took the entire parent quarters, then all the structures and systems that we advocated that they use. And we have digitized that into a family app.

So now all the processes that will actually have kids learn about money are just automatic in there. There’s no teaching that’s required by parents. There’s just this, and like I said, parents have to do some work. They have to decide how much they’re willing to give their kids for certain things each month. And it’s a category of spending that they will no longer be responsible for. They’ll give the kids that. So they have to say, I’m willing to spend $60 month for you entertainment or whatever. And now I’m going to give that to you in weekly increments and you can’t ask me for anymore. But in the app, there’s a gig marketplace so parents can post tasks, no, not the day to day chores. Those have to be done because you’re part of the family and they shouldn’t really be collapsed with money. It doesn’t teach a very good lesson. But this is like wash the car. What Rick believes in. Kids can actually suggest projects, right? Yeah. I noticed that the dogs were all muddy. I’m going to wash them even though that’s not my chore and I’d like to get paid $10 so they can actually enter that in and parents can approve it or not. And then when they’re done with the task or negotiate, I think that’s a $3 task. Yeah, I hadn’t thought about that yet.

You’re making our features more complex is always MVP. That’s the problem with that is you just keep going all day with the ideas. So when, when you talk about this money to his parents actually pay them through the app. So basically they would, I’m just thinking this out loud. So they would put some money in there, like $100 or $10, whatever, whether they’re comfortable with, and then that could be just dispersed if the kid does the activity. That’s what the task marketplace. But the other part is that there’s allocations of money. And I don’t like to use the word allowance cause it’s


. It’s like we all know I give my kid allowance, but this is like, here’s how much money our family is allocating for this. So it’s teaching that there’s choice and there’s budget and there’s a plan. So here’s all the money for all of your afterschool activities for this semester.

I’m going to give it to you in weekly increments. And then you figure out how to save it so that you can do the things you want to do and you’re no longer getting any more money from us than that for that category. Does that make sense? I mean, I feel like allowance is like free money and it has this kind of a different connotation. We didn’t have allowance growing up, so I don’t know, maybe I’ve always had like a negative thought process to that word. But I like allocation a lot better cause it’s also a word. I would never use the word allowance in a business, but I would use allocation all the time. So to me it’s already, and I know it’s just a word, but to me it makes way more sense. Yeah. To use. I’m going to use that. I have 10 nieces and nephews.

So [inaudible] yes, language information. Incredibly important part of all this. We’d started with the conversation of, what is the word we use for money all the time. What’s the last thing you did with your money spend? Spend it. You hardly ever save it. Right? And nobody’s using it. And then if they’re using save, it’s, it’s used in a way that doesn’t really reflect true what fading is. And so w w we want to use very intentional words and that’s part of the training that goes on. And so even the way our, our, our app is designed, there’s very specific language and titles for things that make it work. So is the app out now? Is it in process? What part of that? Where are you at and, and what step? Six weeks. Six weeks. Okay. So we’re, we’re very close. I’ve been saying that for a few weeks. Well, well, it’ll probably be less six weeks when this cam

Comes out. So maybe it’ll still be safe with six weeks with this comes out. So it’s, it’s, you’re almost done then. You’re 90% ready for summer and all beta tested and be able to

Show it off at camp. So we’ll have about 250 to 300 kids in our summer camp this year. And they’re in there all weekend on Friday. The parents come in and they do like a little graduation and the kids do reports on what their business was. And then I, I just share about the app. And so we’ve built a pretty strong waiting list that was talking about it all last summer. And so a lot of those folks will be signing up and that’s going to be our kind of lunch.

Yeah, I think it’s a lot of fun. So do you think, it might be too early to, to answer this, but is this going to be like a paid app is going to you add okay. A paid app, no ads, no ads. Yeah, I like that better.

[Inaudible] Totally. we are doing some, a collaboration with some other programs that, that it could maybe be conceived as an app, but for instance, PBS has a show out. It’s called biz kids and it’s about budgeting and it’s about making money and starting businesses. It’s an incredibly high production value show. Bill Nye the science guy, the same kind of people, that same crew built this show and it was on the air for seven years on PBS and it’s off the air now. And so we’re going to be embedding that in there with short videos, two or three minutes, just a quick tip. And if they want to, they can buy the whole episode. So there’s a collaboration of, of knowledge and it’s very finely curated to match the message that we’re making. Sure we’re training them in.

Yeah. And I think, you know, one of the thing is, is there’s so much noise. So basically sounds like the direction with that is, Hey, we’re going to the same message. It’s going to be money. It’s going to be helping kids manage their money or earn money or whatever it might be. Mmm. So what about like how did you get the team to build this app? Like how did that all come about? Right. Cause it’s completely different from managing like all these different workshops. Right, right.

So it’s been a gradual process and a lot of those people have come along all the way. You know, same CFO for eight years, you know, just


people that are getting involved in this are really committed to it in a different way than it’s, than a job. And during the summers when we’ve been doing camps and programming throughout the year, it’s, you know, part time, it’s seasonal work. We’ve had UN volunteers for the last four years who’ve come from all over the world. Mmm. One of the fellows that was here two years ago, it was from Italy. I’m worried about him right now, but he, you know, they come to volunteer so they can learn more about, you know, U S business and entrepreneurship and they volunteer at these camps and they go home, completely changed. And several of them have come back on their own just to come back and volunteer with us. So we have a really strong core of people that care about this. And I’m, I’m extremely vocal about what I do and I’m really dug into the community of other people that are committed to this level of financial literacy, you know, but real financial and there’s just people that come to this that have, I have joined our team from there and we’re doing collaborations and efforts that just help expand this beyond just what I’m doing with Moolah you

And what for developing the app wise. Like what advice would you give somebody that wants to do that? And then, cause there’s a lot of technical problems that happened to as well as, you know, not just technical. There’s a lot of problems that happen.

Well the biggest problem is you don’t know what you’re building. So you know, we started actually this, this whole app idea has started with a very young man who was seven when he first did our camp. He built his first app when he was 11 and premiered it at maker fair. And then at 15, he built a driving app to track his driving hours and he’s stayed involved in our program all the way through. He’s been on our leadership team. He X as a counselor essentially at camp. And he kept telling me, you know, we should build an app, we should build an app. And I was like, yeah, well show me how to use my phone first because I have no tech, whatever. And so he was like, well, let me go see what I can build. Let me go see what we can do.

And along the way, and he partnered up with this fellow from Italy who actually helped them do some of the research. So we were also doing a ton of market research to determine what other products were out there, determining what features were going to set us apart, how other ones worked, how they didn’t. We did user experience studies. We worked with the general assembly to do two different studies on that and we just, you know, kept building, well, Ben was really interested in building the financial interface. So we started that. We entered mass challenge last may and Ben was on board earlier than that, starting to work on this. And we realized that the banking interface was probably not the place to start, but we had to go down that track for a while. First. It’s changing really fast. We’re dealing with tons of regulatory issues around kids and money and we’re, you know, we weren’t prepared in side of understanding that market enough to build that first. And we really focused back in on the features. So we’re actually launching it without an actual debit card attached to it.

Right. And sometimes, I mean, the thing about an app, like you said, you don’t know what you’re building and you know what you’re gonna get into until you’re knee deep. Yeah. But it does sound to me that it’s very similar to a product. Like, say if we were designing a product, you would go out there and talk to people about it, see what they like, see what it feels like and all that. So it’s pretty much the same thing. So and to 2019 you are mentor of the year for Austin under 40. So tell me how that happened. Like what, what what does that mean?

Crazy. I’ve been a mentor. I mean what I do in my programs is mentor all these young people. So there’ve been like 4,000 kids through our camps and, and I’ve just really love it. And like I said, we have these teens that come up through the program and you know, I’m just all about, you know, how can I support them in expanding their understanding of themselves and what they’re capable of. Well, I mean, that’s what I see mentoring as. And so I was invited to be a mentor for the young women’s Alliance, I think it was seven years ago. And so every year I mentor a different woman through those programs. And the young women Alliance is part of the Austin under 40 awards. It’s a, I know you interviewed a J Bingham. And so the young men’s business league and the young women’s Alliance put the AAU 40 together every year.

And so I got the nomination for that, the email for that and for mentor of the year. And I was like, what did they not know? Like, but then I kept reading it and said, well, you have to be over 40. So then I said, well, okay. But it was because of that. And then, you know, you reach out and you get letters of recommendation and I wrote, I asked a bunch of the young people that I’ve mentored to write those letters and I was just crying reading them. Yeah. It was so much fun. Very touching to understand the difference I’d made. And I’ll, I’ll tell you something about winning an award like that. And I’m sure you’ve won plenty, but not plenty. But you know, you’re heads down doing what you know to do. You’re, you’re doing something really great. You can look up every now and then and see individual impact that you’ve made and, and then you can go to sleep happy and go, okay.

You know, there’s moments where you’re like, okay, this is, I’m on the right track, but you never really stand back and look at the entire accomplishment of it. And so that was probably the first time I was acknowledged that broadly for something that great. And then of course Dan Graham awarded me the honors and he’s a hero of mine. So it was all just a a moment where I got to take a deep breath and go, yeah, I’m on the right track. And this does make a difference. And yeah, I mean, this is really cool and it’s not like you need an award for all that, but I think it, like you said, is, is it’s really hard to take a step back and say, okay, you know, this, I’ve done all this stuff or just been a part of all these things. Mmm.

So w so what’s next? So you’re launching that, but what’s like five years out? Like, what’s that look like for you? We’ll still be launching the app. I don’t think that’s ever done is it? I mean, it isn’t. We know we have a massive amount of features that we want to include. We have plenty of opportunities to connect with through other institutions and organizations to get this to more people. There’s been a strong pull for us to do this in Singapore. You know, it’s the FinTech center of the universe essentially. And they have government funding for projects like this that were looking at options like that. You know, the goal is to have this in the hands of every parent who’s, who’s doing anything with money in their kids. I mean, pretty much every parent and that has the technology. And so learning how to do that, learning how to get that to as many people as possible and really serve people in and being free and building financial stability.

You know, this is, this is all there is. I don’t know if that’s five years, right? This is one of those mother Teresa, but no hungry child. And so I’m playing a pretty, you know, infinite game and I like that and I don’t have to know, you know, where it ends. I just have to have a N an end in sight that says there will be no more generational poverty in Northstar. So. Okay. And you’ve already talked about a few like actual some advice for kids. So say if I’m a, I was a PA, so I have 10 nieces and nephews, but I’m not a parent, but my brother, I just was at his house. He’s got four kids. So let’s just say somebody in third grade, like what advice would you give either the parent or the kid? Like give me something that’s actual, that you guys would do.

Like what would be something they whether it’s an exercise or whatever. Yeah, no, there’s like a couple of really easy steps. Every time you’re a kid starting at age five. Really? No. They’re asking you to buy them stuff at the checkout counter or are there saying, I really need this next thing. Or you can start to notice what’s important to them. You know, what do they want? And you know how you’ll learn something is you’re going to really want something, you’re going to go figure out how to get it. Isn’t that, that’s like, yeah. So we really want to pay attention to our kids in terms of what they’re interested in and follow their lead on that. And an example of my, one of the women from the young women’s Alliance has a five-year-old and you know, begs for candy at the checkout counter every time they’re there.

And so, you know, give him a certain amount of money and give it to him on a weekly basis. And you know, just that simple. And they decided $3 because he wouldn’t eat too much to die if he ate it all at once. And you know, so they gave him the $3 a week and he put it in his old purse and he goes to the store and he gets his candy. And first week he came back and he’s like, okay, so wait, how much is ice cream? Because next week I want to buy ice cream. So let me save it up. Price. But he was learning, learned the value of money. He had the autonomy to make his own decisions. Wow. I mean, we all want that. And delay gratification, you know, it was just like all of that lesson in one little moment.

Just that $3 in one week. And he was already learning that. So do that on a larger level. Pick a category of money that you’ve noticed that they’re asking for things to buy a lot of things in a category that’s relatively Hmm. Safe for them to make those decisions themselves and for them to actually lose that money. Right. Make that small mistake. Yes. I was saying earlier, yeah, it saved, they lost $3. That would mean a lot to them. But at the end of the day, they only lost $3. But you know, it’s almost that it’s still still has the same weight as when you’re older and you lose $1,000 falling off a little bitty bike versus falling off your motorcycle. So what about, so when they’re, say in a high school or something, when a freshman high school, do you just scale that up to where you’re just giving more money or what?

Or is there some different exercises for different age groups like that? It has more to do with stages than ages. I would say if you’ve never done anything with your high school student, each student by the time they’re there you know, you, you’ve got to start giving, giving them very small increments. The big that makes a difference is it’s very, very specific amount of money. It’s not that allowance, here’s some money, go figure it out. It’s like, okay, you’re now going to buy all your own if you know, whatever that is close or some portion of a thing that’s really important to them.

Or like sports, like, you know, activities. Cause I know my story is different. I actually, a lot of this is real to me. I had my first job at 13 because I wanted to be on a traveling team and I needed money. Right? And we just, that was my way to be on that team and cause all the other kids had plenty of money. So to me, like jerseys, like $150 for jerseys, right when you’re 13 years old is not easy to do. So, you know, I had to definitely work it in gear, but I was forced in that. So I think one of the things that I’m getting out of it, a lot of this is, you know, just because we’re not forced doesn’t mean there’s some of these learning skills that you can still do. You just gotta do it, right?

No. And you were forced, but somebody made a choice not to give you that, right?

Yeah. Correct. No, and my mom probably would have, I think to me, we were more of a family unit, so it was like, okay, well

How are we all going to get this done?

Yeah, exactly. And so my brother worked at the place where I went and two older brothers worked at the place. So you know, like, okay, well you can, you know, wash dishes for two hours.

Exactly what you’re going to your brother going to do with his kids. Now this is a team thing. Like how are we going to make this money last for all the things our family wants to do. And you know, in addition to giving them money and having them make their own decisions and get that autonomy, you want to include them in decisions that you’re making about how the family’s going to spend money like vacations. And that’s kind of, I’ve seen that more commonly, which is what we’re going to go on this trip and here’s how much it’s going to cost and you’re, you know, but really beyond that, how are we saving for it? You know, how are you going to save this, this, this, this spending money that you want to have while you’re on the trip for the kids? You know, just engaging everybody in the conversation for how choices are being made in the family. We tend not to talk to our kids about how we use money.

Yeah. And then once they go on a trip, right, right. And then we’re just, yeah. And then why are we only going once a year? Right. You know, what’s the reason behind that? Oh, also another question I have is, so we were just talking about the kind of the positives. What’s some native things that parents do? I mean, we, I think we can think of plenty of them, but what’s something that comes top of mind, right? Right. But like, you know what, what is some stuff that you see that’s often [inaudible]

The big ones, the standing at the checkout counter or anywhere and saying, you know, kids saying, I want to buy this and telling them you can’t. If we can’t afford that, because as a child, especially younger children, they’re like, well then how are we going to buy food? I mean, they really don’t have a way to sort that information out in any other way. And they can hear the, the, the, the, the, the word we can’t afford. And the nets, it’s their mental mind. Their mindset about money becomes, you know, we’re either rich or poor and it doesn’t have any power. We only have financial stability. We understand that we’re in control of our money. And so that’s excluding it. We can’t afford is like putting the decision outside of you. Right. That’s a big one. Mmm. You know, another one is, is using your kids using money to reward your kids for things that you want for them.

Oh, interesting. Yeah. As opposed to what, what what’s important to them.

Right. I mean like if, you know, I’ve heard of people paying their kids to read cool books, like read a cool book a week, you know, that’s, that’s something you want, but you know, it’s good for them. But the, the grades thing, so we’ve got in this culture where parenting is very competitive, right? Right. And so it makes me look good if my kid does good on a test, so I’m going to reward them for that. It’s, it’s skewed. It’s those kind of trying to manage their behavior with money. It’s really frustrating to see that because when kids don’t have anybody paying them to behave well when they go off to college, right? Who’s, where’s the regulator? And they haven’t gotten any self regulation for performing well in school, if that’s important to them or, or managing how much sleep they get. I mean, we’re, kids are so regulated about everything and it’s so external.

So giving them more choices to regulate themselves and let them make some mistakes. And that’s probably the third big one that parents don’t do, is that they, they don’t let kids make mistakes. And when they do make mistakes, they get punished or they get shamed. There are, there are some tools for kids now, some debit card tools that parents can give their kids money. The allowance thing, put some money on your card. And when parents don’t like where they’re spending it, they shut it down. They take money back.


Those are not teaching the right lessons. So, Mmm. It’s being really clean about it. You know, we always want to remember that like when you spend it, it’s gone. And that’s just the only true theory is about money.

Well, and I think a lot of those points that you were just making it very, there are parallels to not just money. I think there’s, there’s a lot of, you know, I think you got to let a kid fall down every once in a while get hurt a little and so while as opposed to getting so worried about it or pushing it, you know, getting them so busy so that they don’t even ever have any time to themselves to get creative to come up with something. Yeah. Mmm. So are we through like a normal day in your life? Like, you know, like how, how has that work out? Like do you well, I mean it’s, I think it’s interesting cause you’re a pretty high performing person and a lot of people you know, might be interested like, you know, is there a certain morning routines that you go through? Do you read on a daily basis, like journaling? Any, any, anything like that?

Of course. I’m sure you have some. I want to hear about years later I have, I have this very specific one. So it’s it’s out of having to perform at such a high level that we end up putting those structures in place. I know.

Well, and you’ll have a structure whether you know it or not. The thing is, I think that if, if you decide you’re going to have a certain structure, it’s probably going to be a better structure than just to fault. Yeah. Right.

So I started w Y Combinator has an amazing set of videos and I, it was really looking at how do you build a tech company. So I started listening to those and I, I started noticing that there were some really important structures that I knew would make a difference, but I wasn’t doing them. And I went, you know, if I’m going to build this company, it’s going to take an extraordinary effort. And I don’t want it to be hard. I want it to be an effort that pays off, you know? And so I started regulating my sleep better. I get up, but four 30 or five in the morning, I’m at the gym. Five mornings a week is my rule. I don’t care which five. And then sometimes I just walk in the door and

Signing and walked back to my car. Yeah. I’m a big believer in that because if you set for five and let’s say you miss, at least you’re at four. Some people that like say they’re going to do two or three, well they miss.

There are one or two like this isn’t work, but I don’t miss no, that’s the five. I mean when I set these structures, they were there because they’re proven. I did during the Corona virus episode, I got a little nervous about getting out in public until I could understand that better. And they actually saw a report on the news. It’s a, gyms are some of the cleanest places cause nobody gets very close to each other. Everyone’s always wiping to other sheets. So I’m back in the gym, but and I’m, you know, I have a very strict diet in the morning. I make sure I have something really nutritious and protein wise and I just get to work and I have a very specific work period in the morning before the day gets started where I get myself organized and I take on one major project. It could be a 30 minute hour long, I’ve got to write this, I’ve got to create this pitch deck or I’ve got to write to this, you know, this organization and I’ve gotta be really eloquent about it. So I just want to focus on that.

Yeah. Which I love. Do you check email yet or not at all?

I might in between, especially if I have something I was waiting for, for a meeting to schedule, but I don’t respond. I mean I’ll just check and see if there’s something I need to know

And I just get too busy. You get down to basics. I like that. I might start doing that a lot of times cause if I check I’ll start responding. Yeah. I I don’t really start responding til 10 in the morning. So and I don’t let anybody book me until 10 in the morning cause so on. I want to protect my right and I’m also not a morning person. So to me I need a few hours before I’m fully, I have my, I am just not, not as awake. Let’s just put that way. My, my

It takes me awhile. [inaudible] It’s a Buddha process. Well I think I was a whole lot more like that before just for a hint is that having a child, I started laying down to read her a book, you know, and I’d fall asleep at eight o’clock. So I was getting up at three in the morning and I went, Oh this is nice. There’s nobody, you know, it’s all I can focus and it’s all a matter of training.

Yeah. Well for me it’s just that, that’s my nine, 10:00 PM nobody bothered me. Right. So cause I don’t have kids yet, so it’s as just a flip flop. Right.

That was my life before. I’d stay up till three in the morning working on things and I’d brain, I can still stay up really late if I need to, but yeah, I have to cut to get a second wind. But yeah, the rest of the day is, you know, probably meetings, phone calls. I try to keep open Friday. It’s a very open day for me to sort of compile everything that happened during the week, start to look ahead at what’s going on next week. I don’t want to plan a whole lot right there. I’ve started having afternoon tech meetings with this young man that’s working on our app right now. He’s an intern and he’s taken on leadership of a particular part of it. And so we have a sort of a mentor tech tech meeting on Fridays. Yeah. And how do you, do you guys do some like SWAT type meetings where with like new with the app?

And how often does that happen? The tech team meets on Thursday nights. A lot of the people that are involved have full time jobs or they’re in school. And so that’s our meeting night. I’ll get on those calls sometimes. Mostly I just want them to, yeah, move the, the development side along. We’ve [inaudible] talked about the features. We, they are totally embedded in understanding how the dynamic of it needs to work. And then we have another call on Sundays and then they’d make communicate in between, through Slack during the week. That’s great. So so when you, so your marketing approach in the past, it sounds like it’s happened very organically. What’s your, what do you guys have kind of a launch plan for the app that you’re, I mean, it sounds like you already have some beta users ready to go and some email lists, but is there any other kind of marketing launch plan that you guys have?

We’re partnering with a lot of other organizations, so there’s a huge effort going on as you can imagine in the world of financial literacy. And I’ve been really involved in that. So you know, working on figuring out how to reach the constituents of all these other organizations that are already doing that. And we are in conversations with banks because ultimately that’s the best way for us to scale this. And it, you know, we don’t know what that’s gonna look like yet. The conversations are moving along but it’s a perfect acquisition tool for a bank. And it’s a great retention tool and it’s not a typical thing that they’ve used to do that. So, you know, kind of building toward that. Yeah, I think it’d be great as opposed to just wanting people that already have money to come in.

Maybe it’s like the, let’s get the whole process going early on so we can be a whole full service bank and, and, and have smart money customers, you know, I mean, they make money on debt, but there’s good debt, you know, if you’ve got to get a mortgage, you know, I was talking about my parents people pay cash for houses. Oh yeah. And they still do. And other countries just not here. I know, I hear it. It’s like the [inaudible] by the biggest you can with the littlest about it. You can. Yep. And put yourself way out on the skinny branches and then 2008 happens or 2020 happens, which we’re seeing now. I mean, this has been the most devastating you know, economic upset that we’ve had. Well, it’s interesting when like, you know, and not to,

It’s always interesting talking about your own stuff, but

When you lose more money than you made in your first job in a week, it’s just, that’s not fun. But it’s also great because the market’s wore up for so long. I mean, it, I mean, you’re going to have, it’s a moment in time of course, and we’ll see how far down it goes. I think one concern I have with current trends is, you know, there’s no really room on interest rates to move, to try to stimulate the economy. So yeah. Or already pretty low. So that’s always, that’s very scary to me to what, what the future could hold. What about, so you, you, you mentor a lot. What, what about you? Do you have any mentors or books or anything that you look up to or that have affected your life? Yeah.

Everyone, I mean every, I look at everyone as a mentor. This is an opportunity for me to learn from you and the kinds of questions you’re asking or you know, helping me think of new things I need to do. And very specifically, yes, there’ve been some very specific powerful people that have just stood for me and introduced me to people and questioned me. And that’s probably interesting that the most important thing a mentor has ever done for me is make me answer questions, you know, make me find the answers and show me what I needed to be looking at without telling me. So there’ve been people along the way in education that were really pivotal at the very beginning when we were designing our courses. And then as I’ve entered them, I was also in the BB VA momentum accelerator. So, you know, it was assigned a mentor from BB VA and he’s been really helpful and making sure I’m on track with my finances.

There’s just, everybody’s comes together for different reasons. Some people are connectors, some people are really good at their, you know, unique specialty. And they can teach me, you know, I mean, I didn’t know how to read a spreadsheet and you know, just having to look at that now I can’t add two and two without opening a spreadsheet, you know, and somebody, you know mentors stood in for me doing that and just took their time and made sure I got it and asked me the right questions and introduce things to me gently. So yeah,

I think with the spreadsheets, there’s a lot of cool things you can do and now you can get too far. I’ve had to, some people I’ve worked with that get weighed to spreadsheet, they want to do Excel for everything. But so when you were talking about kinda your path, like what’s something that you would tell your 15 year old self? Well, any advice you’d give to your way back then?

If we’re talking about money, it would have been to say for investing. I, that’s my advice to anybody that’s younger. But I, if I had done that, I mean, if any of us had saved 10% of our money since we were any age, you know and really used it to make more money and not had it sitting there as that, you know, emergency fund. Right. but also to be a little more strategic with the kinds of risks I took and to use them as learning experiences instead of just like rebellions. Does

That mean no, completely makes sense. Especially, yeah. You know, I have some nieces and nephews that are getting older, so it’s like, yeah, the rebellious phases are coming. What about any regrets

Over the course of your life? Well, I don’t think so. That’s great. I’ve yeah, I’ve made plenty of mistakes and I feel like I’ve learned from them all. I’ve always wished I’d spent more time with my parents, you know, and you know, things, the things that are true to your heart that there’s no way around. You couldn’t have done it any differently really. Mmm. But, you know, those are the things I miss more than regret. Right? Yeah, definitely.

So what does a success look like for you?

Financial independence for everyone. You know, I, I know we can’t change Mmm. You know, financial inequities, you know, the social inequities that are occurring with in the financial world and everybody’s going to have a different amount of money. But if we could all just learn to operate inside of what we’ve got and be inspired to know that we could create more, that would be success for me.

I love it. Yeah. I think that’s a, that’s a, that’s a bold task, but definitely something that could be done though. I mean I know that over my financial journey you know, there’s, it’s definitely Hills, right? So, but you get, life gets much easier when you got a kind of a plan and you got it figured out and you kind of know it’s kind of almost a yes or no situation very easily as opposed to, I think when you yeah, when you don’t have a specific plan, it’s like, well, maybe I guess we’ll, we’ll, we’ll buy that or that. As opposed to when you have a plan, it’s like, well that’s not a part of the plan. So it’s a, it’s almost automatic. No, you don’t have to [inaudible]

Think about it. It’s the discipline of getting up and going to the gym five mornings a week. Yeah. Well completely. Yeah, and it’s discipline in any form because the results I’m producing from that are, you know, equal to the level of success you would feel if you were actually saving 10% of your money and you’d start to see it’s anything you’re going to do with in practice over time with discipline. One of my favorite quotes is a Warren buffet or it’s attributed to Warren Buffett. I’m someone is sitting in the shade today because long ago someone planted a seed, very fun and you have to have the time, you have to have the seed, you’ve got to have the money, you’ve got to give it time and you have to take action with it. And that’s pretty much how it is with anything that we want to achieve, you know, in life. And I also think the,

With the gym every single morning is you also are eliminating a decision. So a lot of people are like, Oh well, you know, maybe I’ll do this class tonight and maybe I won’t. So, you know, and the same thing can happen with money. It was kinda what I was saying with a plan, right, is you’re literally literally are trying to remove decisions like it’s already been made. I made that decision in January or whatever it was and that’s where it’s going. Another way that we’ve done with some of our, our money stuff is it’s, you know, I hate the word tax, but you kind of tax yourself. We’re saying, okay, well,

And you say that the saving 10% or whatever.

And I think there’s a lot of other FinTech programs out there, Wealthfront and betterment and those where you could basically say, okay, every month pull out $1,000 or $500 or every two weeks or whatever it be. And I also think some of those can be great at $50 every two weeks, right? Just to, just to get it going. So it’s a process as opposed to just say, well, I’m going to save up money, then I’m going to put it in the market. Th th th that never works. Go ahead. If you had something, the interesting thing about these programs that are out there for adults and have studied them and it’s brilliant, right? You know, you need to budget betterment, any of those we’re, we’re trying to correct something, you know, we’re, we’re actually trying to correct something with that. You never got a good, if you’re, if you’re using that to improve your situation and patterns, it’s because you didn’t get those as a youngster and you, but you’ve got something and it’s probably not real good.

So you’re putting, you’re putting frosting on a mud pie. You know, it’s very difficult to change those behaviors and those mindsets. The, it’s so hard to put $1,000 a month away. Right. But for my daughter, you know, 10% goes in there all the time and I, you know, I’ve told you she’s, well, it’s just like a house. And the reason why I say, you know, tax yourself a little bit, cause you don’t question that, it just happens. Right. Pay it. Right. So how many of the same thing do that is the point. Yeah. And you have to, and I think we’re on the same point here, is you have to do it right away because if especially you get a new job right away, don’t do it in the second paycheck. It’s gotta be that first paycheck in. Cause it’s kinda like what I was saying, when you, we have these rituals, whether we create them ourselves or they happen to us, it’s gotta be part of that. And whether it’s money or your health or, you know, when you get a new job, like where are you going to go for lunch? What have you do that probably that first couple of weeks is probably what you gonna do all the time. Yeah. So so what’s your favorite, so as opposed to this, just pertaining to the app, what’s your favorite memory related to creating this app in this experience?

Huh. It was really exciting when we at the launch of mass challenge, the first showcase day and the 16 year old kiddo that was involved in helping us get this thing going. He did our 32nd pitch Oh wow. To a room full of investors and, and I was just, you know, choked up in the back of the room. So proud that he was, you know, that he was confident enough to do that. And then he made sense, like better sense than I put up probably. And that was the product of what we’d been doing, that he could do that it was just this full circle. It’s a very proud moment for me and for him. And just, I’m really proud of the team on goingly every day. I’m just gratitude, just full of, for them. Mmm. And just proud of the energy and the love and the passion they’re bringing to it.

It makes me realize that it’s not about me because when it’s all about me, it’s really hard. You know, it’s so much harder when you’re, you’re driving it all the time and, and I’m running to catch up with other people at this point. So that’s probably the funniest, is that it’s, it’s gotten contagious enough for other people to take it and run. Love it. What would you title this chapter in your life? Ooh, Mmm. There’s a sense of arrival. Like I’ve, well, I’ve gotten to this place where I know what I’m here for and have the, I dunno, some internal drive to did do it. I’ve always been driven, but there’s just like, well now it’s not a choice. It’s, I don’t have to generate that. Mmm. And there’s just like a legacy building. Like I’m there, I’m at the point where I understand that, that this is going to be something that’s going to impact future generations. And that’s, I don’t think you can get there till you’re a little bit further into your career, let’s say. And last question, what would how would you like to be remembered? Mm. Of service. I’m a person of service. Others. I love it. This is a fantastic podcast. I really appreciate you coming on and I really appreciate it. I had a blast. Thanks. Great talking to you. Cheers.

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